Writer Dan Savage voices some concerns that many of us in the gay community are having right now:
"African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage in that state. Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters.
"I’m not sure what to do with this. I’m thrilled that we’ve just elected our first African-American president. I wept last night. I wept reading the papers this morning. But I can’t help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren’t mutual.
"I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.
"This will get my name scratched of the invite list of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which is famous for its anti-racist-training seminars, but whatever. Finally, I’m searching for some exit poll data from California. I’ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8." - Dan Savage.
I can't help but agree. I would assume that "Civil Rights" would apply to everyone - and I am surprised that gays and lesbians have fewer allies in the African-American community than we thought.
23 comments:
This is shocking to me. How hurtful, to support a community and cry foul over the discrimination they face, then be discriminated against by the same group.
I seriously agree.
Read this for another perspective on the same issue.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-wieder/gays-vs-african-americans_b_141606.html
May I suggest that you all read this article from the Huffington Post.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonce-gaiter/black-blindness-on-propos_b_136488.html
Hopefully it can give you some insight into why homophobia is so prevalent in the African American community. Because sitting around ranting and raving without true understanding is not going to solve anything nor will it change minds.
And why such the shock? Did it never occur to any of you that there is a reason why there are so many closeted African American gays out there?
Please be proactive, not bitter! That's all I'm asking!!!!
The whole thing just puts such a bad taste in my mouth. I am disgusted by discrimination and when it boomerangs among different minority groups it seems to resonate louder. Whatever happened to standing up for one another? I am so sorry (and sorry about Florida too).
My Darlings -
Let me be perfectly clear - this post was NOT meant to be "bitter", or to bash African-Americans. Absolutely not. I would never permit something like that here on DavidDust. This is merely an outlet to discuss my/our feelings about the fact that Prop 8 was successful. African-American support was a part of the puzzle - but by no means the only reason this measure passed. I think that many of us are so disappointed and hurt that we are simply asking questions.
I am well aware of the prevalence of closeted African-American and Latino men. And I am also knowledgeable of the conservative views of many in the African-American community when it comes to gay/sexuality/masculinity issues. I also read the HuffPo article Dagny suggested (thanks for the link). But that tradition doesn't make it right, or make me any less disappointed about what happened in California.
I don't understand any of it, homosexuality or homophobia but that doesn't mean it doesn't exists or that my or anybody's views are right. Can't we each find our own space on earth without having to judge others?
We had a long discussion tonight, at the dinner table, with Dear Daughter (the only currently captive child at home).
The Engineer and I remember the civil rights marches, the buses to the South, the fire hoses on the streets. We viewed it all from the relative safety of the PNW. I was even more remote, tucked up in Canada.
We seem to be in the same place, the beginning of another push for civil rights.
I'm going to go read the selections mentioned in the comments.
I'm not surprised. I've had so many arguments with that black guy I went with so long about it. He refused to make the connection between how our being together used to be illegal and how it is with gay people. He's not the only one I'm basing this on, but the one closest to me.
A lot of black people are Baptists around here, and that's where the prejudice comes in. Those fundamentalists are intolerant of many things. I don't know what to do about that, either. I've had many unproductive discussions with them. To me, that way of thinking isn't Christian, which they claim to be.
Wasn't an accusation at you, dear DD! Just a plea to the GLBTQ populace in general! I have to agree with Joy- what's Christian about judging and condemning?
Well the reason is two-fold. African Americans have the church as a strong centre to its political and social power. When the hurch is so powerful in a community you will often see this sort of thing. Than you have the gay community which is white, you rarely ever see LGBT ossociations even trying to reach out to black gays or latino gays. It is just reperesented as blue eye, blond hair white guys. There is alot of discrimination in both the black and gay community.
That done, the next step might be to declare open season on gays.Hunting licenses for that ought to raise a lot of revenue.
I get upset beyond reason when I think that others take the right to restrict our rights. It's like the middle ages when the RC Church claimed to be the one true religion. Now straights feel they are the one true gender. Well, what is, IS.
-Charlie
I'm getting pretty sick and tired of "The White Gay Establishment" using this divisive data to distort the real problems within the gay community. I would love to know exactly what the gay community stands for.
Time and time again, "the white gay establishment" has been sending out mixed messages in garnering support for their causes in the black community. I wonder if the "The White Gay Establishment" did any canvassing in black communities in trying to get support for the right to marry. I wonder if "The White Gay Establishment" met with any prominent black leaders in stressing the support they would need from the black community.
Dan Savage can go on his rants about his displeasure for the African American community and their non support of Prop 8 ban, but I can tell you that he hasn't bothered with bridging the gap with the black gay community. The commentators on this blog can also voice their reservations about non support, but from my on experience the "the white gay community" would much rather keep myself and non whites away from their issues.
I've said it before and I will say it again, I have encountered more racist attacks from "GAY WHITE MALES" than any other group of people.
Let's get real! The "White Gay Establishment" doesn't have a platform to unite people for the greater good. The "White Gay Establishment" doesn't have a national leader that is constantly conveying and hammering home a center message. Instead of planning leather parties, circuit parties, and everything else under the fucking sun, maybe they need to cut out all the BULLSHIT so other minority communities can take them serious on the political stage.
The main problem with the gay community as a whole is that we don't stand for anything. We pretend we do, but when it really comes down to getting our hands dirty and sacrificing, we insist on letting someone else fight our battles. One set back and "The Gay White Establishement" is ready to give up. You can blog about the non support of the African American community. You can talk amongst your fellow gay white bothers and sisters, but until you force your way into uncomfortable situations and communities and scream until you're heard, nothing is going to change. The gay community is divided into too many sub sets of communities and the "The White Gay Establishment Community" only sees the "white money community", so their interest is being met while millions of people suffer with inequality.
Yep, you're right, I'm angry!
I can say this....to be a Black man and admit you are gay?...aint gonna happen. so many of the commenters got it right, not that I'm an expert or anything, but they are SOOOO deep in the closet and on the DL, that to protest gay marriage is one way of demonstrating their "masculinity"...it's sad. it's all so sad.
Mike, there is something we can agree about, I, too, am angry as hell. I am truly angry that unlike any other group of people I am aware of, my civil rights can be put up to a public vote. I am angry both the left and the right tend to politicize the lives of myself and others in order to achieve a desired result. I am angry civil rights groups are not up in arms about this situation.
Am I angry at any particular voting block in California? No, I am pretty pissed at them all. In my more youthful and less jaded days, I would have been angrier at the lack of support and understanding from other minorities, but common sense now tells me that is ridiculous, that anyone with a functioning brain should be able to come to a logical conclusion, so I am every bit as furious at the straight world right now, all of 'em.
You are right, the gay community doesn't have a platform for a consistent campaign message. Why? Because it isn't a political party, but a group of people, all at different levels of self-acceptance, self-awareness, self-importance, and self-loathing. There is a whole bunch of 'self' in that, which is part of the problem.
20 years ago, I did some work in the gay community, and tried to reach out to minority sub-groups, only to be told no, they didn't want to be that 'out' or visible. My volunteer work eventually burnt me out on it all, and I haven't marched on DC or the like in a very long time.
But I do know I don't want my life being used as a political volleyball, constantly being set up to be spiked. The concept that I need to reach-out or audition for the chance to have the same rights as others, or, in the CA Prop 8 situation, to not have rights taken away is both infuriating and dehumanizing.
But, want to know what is most hurtful? That hours after taking away civil rights, the far right has achieved it's ultimate goal, dividing us up and making sure our argument dissolves to finger-pointing and name-calling while they offer misguided prayers of thanks to their misunderstood God.
More food for thought...
This is just the beginning of the battle. As was pointed out in an email I received yesterday from the No on 8 campaign, when a similar ballot measure appeared in 2000, only 2.9 million Californians voted against it -- a loss by 22%. This time around at least 5 million people voted against it. The gap this time around was only 4%. Please concentrate on how huge that is. Yes, we didn't win but we are stronger than before. One day.
The other thing that was disheartening was the fact that I know that I didn't really see any ads for No on 8 until the last week or so before the election -- all while we were bombarded with lying ads from the Yes on 8 folks for quite some time. The No on 8 ads were powerful. I can't help but wonder if they could have made the difference had they been shown earlier.
And Mike has some valid points. In recent years, I have seen quite a bit of discrimination against African American gays within the gay community in the Castro. When I first started hearing the tales from friends, it saddened me that here were wonderful men who were not accepted in either of their communities.
--From a woman who was part of that 30% of African Americans who did vote no
ok. now that everyone has bitched and moaned, what the hell are we going to do about it? most likely nothing, because apathetic white guys like me are trying to get to Puerto Vallarta for Latin Fever or to Aspen for Gay Ski Week rather than putting their ass on the line for what is right! Who or what will it take for us to get off of our asses and raise some hell?
Homophobia's a big problem in the black community: on this issue they're lagging behind white america.
There's lot of factors: the importance of religion in the black community (with lots of religious leaders still preaching that homosexuality is against god), the education gap between white and black america (given that more educated americans tend to be more tolerant).
But, as some other people said, we shouldn't let this satistic engender bitterness and racism. This sort of seems to be Savage's gut reaction here.
Barney Frank is on record saying that African-Americans in Congress are more supportive of Gays and lesbians than any other group includingg gays. There are cultural differences, and anyone who does not know that has never taken the time to understand the "relgious" nature of the African American community, and what Black Gays and Lesbians face. Many in the Black community support rights but view marriage in a church context. But honestly, at 10% of the vote, there are others you can "blame," and people should resists the temptation to racialize this issue. The ACLU and Lamda have filed a writ of mandamus, so all my not be lost. The In Re Marriage case did far more than give gays the Right to Marry, so WE ALL just need to stay active, and support people of all creeds who support us!!
So many important, valid points are being made here. The language around this issue needs to change. Why, for instance, do we seek to adopt a model -marriage- that really is not ours to begin with. Why can't we create our own model of sanctified unions that better reflects our community. Marriage, as a term, is too polarizing. The argument should be reframed in terms of equal protection under the law. Minorities can buy into that language; it creates less resistance because it does not challenge an intrenched belief system, faith.
Mike, the points you made were dead on. I was repulsed by what Savage wrote. Too much of a petulant child in what he expressed. Our community needs to get serious if it wants to be taken seriously.
Here's the argument that I have used in the past...
In many other countries, many couples go through two ceremonies -- a civil one and a religious one. That's right. If you are married in a church, you are still not legally married. Without the civil ceremony, the couple cannot enjoy the legal rights of being married. So why can't we have the separation of the religious and the legal here? It would seem to be fitting with the First Amendment. I've been saying it for 10 years and I'm going to keep saying it.
And lol to Al about PV. According to my mom, the old ladies down there got their panties all in a bunch because they didn't want PV to become known as a gay vacation destination. Whatever.
I know that I will probably be out there protesting once I get past the funeral I have to attend today/tomorrow.
This brings back lots of memories of Prop. 2 in Colorado. We were all extremely elated at the election of Bill Clinton (1st term) and then gut-punched with the passing of Prop. 2 which prevented cities in Colorado from passing gay rights ordinances and invalidating those already on the books (Denver, Boulder, Aspen and more). The high of highs coupled with the low of lows. Yes, we were outraged and distraught and overwhelmed. What to do? What to do? In the end, we organized and several gay and lesbian lawyers found a way to fight it. The rest of us raised the funds necessary. Eventually it was declared unconstitutional by the Colorado Supreme Court.
In the years since, many cities have expanded their gay rights protections. Denver's police and fire actively recruit in the community (yes, you heard right). And this week we elected Jared Polis to Congress - the first openly gay candidate in the US to ever be elected to a first term in Congress. Life is good.
So, have faith. Yes we can.
Sometimes I fear we open-minded, liberal, rights-for-everyone folks are living in a self-made liberal bubble and think more of the world is like us than against us.
Still, it would seem that those who have struggled for equal rights would not stomp on those of us still struggling.
Mark :-)
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